Tips for getting a content design job (Casey Webb, Indeed)
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Staying hopeful, getting hired, and embracing the hustle
The job market for content designers hasn’t been easy—and it’s even harder when you're trying to break into the field for the first time. But if there’s anyone who knows how to stay resilient through the process, it’s Casey Webb.
In this episode, Casey shares her journey from marketing to UX content design—navigating layoffs, contracts, full-time roles, and everything in between. She talks candidly about building confidence, managing rejection, and why being coachable has been her secret weapon in landing roles at companies like Wells Fargo, Warner Bros. Discovery, eBay, and Indeed.
If you’re job searching right now, or just feeling uncertain about your next move, this episode is for you.
What we talked about:
✅ How Casey transitioned from marketing into content design
✅ The ups and downs of job hunting over the last few years
✅ Why the expectations for content designers have changed
✅ The importance of business impact and strategic thinking in portfolios
✅ How to deal with contradictory interview feedback
✅ Why the “one yes” mindset can help you push through
✅ Tips for preparing for interviews and asking smart questions
✅ Why reaching out and building a network really works
✅ How to show up with humility and curiosity—on and off paper
✅ Staying grounded when the job search gets tough
Where to find Casey:
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👉 ATTEND OUR MAJOR COURSE ANNOUNCEMENT ON MAY 6. REGISTER HERE.
👉 Get 20% off courses and workshops at UX Content Collective with PODCAST20.
Transcript:
Tips for getting hired in a tough job market ｜ Get a content design job
Patrick: [00:00:00] Finding a job in UX writing and content design right now is tough, but it's not impossible. Today, I speak to someone who's been through their own hiring journey, and we talk about what advice you can take on your own to land you a job in 2025. Hey, welcome back to Writers of Silicon Valley. I'm your host, Patrick Stafford, the CEO of UX Content Collective. Thank you for joining me again. If you're a new listener, welcome. Today we've got a great interview speaking with Casey Webb, who has just recently started a job as a content designer at indeed. Now the job market is pretty tough. It's gotten a lot better in the last few years, but it's still tough. And that's mostly because not only are there more people looking for these types of jobs, but the questions being asked of everyone are probably more intense than they were maybe 5 or 6 years ago. So I really, really enjoyed this interview because I got to speak to someone who has been through multiple interviews, multiple hiring rounds, and so they've seen the experience from a number of different perspectives. You know, someone who didn't get the job, someone who did get the job and has chosen something else. And yeah, we just talk about a lot of advice that I think could really help a lot of people. What her experience has been like, and if you're looking for a job or even just curious about the job market right now for content designers and UX writers, then I think you'll really enjoy this interview. I don't want to keep you too long before we get into it, just to let you know that if you are interested, UX Content Collective is holding a major curriculum announcement next week. Now, I don't want to tease too much, but I do want to let you know that this is something that I personally have been working on for more than a year, and I do think it is going to.
Patrick: [00:01:56] I think it's a big announcement that's going to make a mark in the industry. So I just want to be up, you know, very upfront and clear. It is about a new course. So I don't want to mislead you or think that it's not marketing when it is. But if you're a content designer or a UX writer, I would highly recommend you sign up for that announcement. I'll put it in the show notes and hopefully I'll see you there. Uh, also, just remember that any listener gets 20% off any courses or workshops at UX Content Collective. Just use podcast 20. So if you're interested, head over and find something that you like. There's all sorts of cool things going on. We've got a workshop for systems thinking. We've got one for AI content strategy, we've got UX content testing courses, accessibility courses, everything you could want. So feel free to go over there and check it out. Okay, that's it for me. Now here's my interview with Casey Webb from indeed about her job search journey. Hope you enjoy it. I'm not sure. It's not like the Oscars, where it's like the industry votes. I think it's like the, the, the Golden Globes where it's like a smaller panel. But I was not surprised. You and I have talked about this before. That last album of hers was not good. She needs she needs to do better. Like, sorry. Like she needs to improve. Um, but I won't talk about that for too long because I think you might just yell at me again. But.
Casey: [00:03:18] No, no, I mean, my favorite, my favorite album is fearless, because it's like going back to, like, the nostalgia and like, the original time. So, like, fearless will always be my favorite album. And like, her older stuff is my favorite over the newer stuff. But that's just because of, like when you discover Taylor Swift and like when you're just kind of like in that stage. So I feel like I just have good memories of, like, the originals.
Patrick: [00:03:41] Yeah. That's fun.
Casey: [00:03:42] That's my that's those are my eras. The the tortured poets department I don't really relate to. I mean, it's it's good. It's not like, relatable.
Patrick: [00:03:51] And now you're in your, your podcasting era. Um.
Casey: [00:03:55] No.
Patrick: [00:03:57] Thank you for coming on. I really wanted to to chat to you because. And I know you and I talk all the time anyway, but I think it would be cool for other people to hear what's been happening with you because you have been on a little bit of a job hunting journey the past couple of years, and you and I have talked at length about your interview process and looking for different jobs and contract roles and full time employment. And I think for people who in the past few years have looked at the industry and thought, oh, it's, you know, pretty shaky, it's unstable. It would be good to hear directly from someone who's been, you know, experiencing that firsthand. And and we can get into that. But but first, um, why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself, what you do now and how you got to to where you are now?
Casey: [00:04:47] Yeah. So part of my story involves like UX content collective from a few years ago. So I'll kind of, um, I'll start with where I am now and kind of give the backtrack of how I got here. But, um, right now I'm a contract content designer for indeed. And so I am currently working on a new team. So super excited about that. But, um, it's been quite a journey to get into UX. And so I first heard about UX in 2018. Um, so doing math, what, like seven years ago? Yeah. Um, but I had my degree was in marketing. I feel like a lot of us have different, like English lit or various backgrounds of that kind, and, um, didn't really know what I wanted to do and was really searching. And so through my first marketing job, I started creating blog posts and website content, and that was kind of where I got my first taste. And so my first role in corporate America, I was working for a tech company, and I was on the marketing team and doing marketing content, writing the things that you read when you're shopping for products focused on SEO. But there was a brand new UX team at the company at the time, and I was really intrigued with what they were doing and really wanted to learn more and wanted to know how I could be a part of that, even from the seat I was in in the marketing team.
Casey: [00:06:07] And so one of my, uh, things that I really just wanted to try to do was to build a bridge between those two teams. They did not have any UX writers or content designers. It was just product designers and user researchers and managers. And so I created this whole proposal to basically do an internal internship and work with that team while I still did my role. So I got to be a part of user testing and writing questions for that, and got to help design things and create content for different app things that were being tested at the time. And it was really cool, and it really just sparked my interest even more and reaffirmed for me that that's what I wanted to do. But during this time, it was before it was like after the pandemic but before the great resignation period. And so it still was challenging to really kind of break into the industry at that point, especially with more of a marketing background. And so I was really trying to see what can I read, what can I do to try to help beef up my skill set and learn more? And so one of the things that I did during that time was the UX Writing Fundamentals course, and I also was reading them. I'm going to forget the exact title. It's Got a Bird on the front the Art of critique.
Casey: [00:07:18] I'm one of those books. Um, it was just trying to immerse myself in as much as I could with UX and go through that process. And so, um, finished up the UX Content Collective course, and it was around that great resignation time period where there was a lot of jobs and a lot of things going on. And so it was really starting to try to apply and heard a lot of no's throughout that process. Again, coming from a marketing background, you know, there was that battle of, um, you need experience to get experience. And that's really what I was facing at that point where I just needed that first. Yes. And so I was able to get that first. Yes. Um, throughout for a contract position over at Wells Fargo, which was awesome. And I'm super thankful for got to work with an awesome team, but, um, got to work over there for two years and then went on to do, um, a couple contract roles with Warner Brothers, discovery and eBay. And now over at indeed. Um, there was there was some shifts. I started as a contractor, went over full time back with Wells Fargo, and there was some shifts with things with the landscape about a year ago, um, with return to office and various things. So I entered back into Contract World, but been thankful to continuously been able to find that next opportunity.
Patrick: [00:08:39] And that brings you to where you are today. So I think the you've been remarkably successful, I think, in, uh, in finding these different roles and through your interviews and throughout that entire process. And I think one of the things that I want to talk about is, you know, the resilience and the process and so on. But I want to start a little bit broader. You you've been working and job hunting, probably, I wouldn't say regularly because, you know, you had stints there where, you know, you're at Wells Fargo for a couple of years and so on. But you've also seen what the job market has been like during these different periods. And so just broadly, to start off with what has changed in that time in terms of, I guess, the vibe, right, in terms of talking to people who are hiring recruiters and so on. What has changed and what stayed the same?
Casey: [00:09:39] Yeah. So back when I was first trying to break into UX, I felt like there was a lot of jobs available, and I felt like there was a lot of things I was seeing. Now, I wasn't getting my first, yes, but I felt like there was a lot of things I was going after at that point and really trying to go into the industry. And then in 2022 contract roles especially, there was I feel like there was a lot of contract opportunities. So I actually stepped out of a full time role into contract because that, um, felt like the best way to go to kind of get my foot in the door at that point. And I remember during that time I kind of hit like this sweet spot where there was like 3 or 4 different interviews happening all at once, and things were moving really quick, and the interview process was happening at lightning speed. And it was just going, going, going. And I feel like from that time period, fast forward a couple years now, there's less roles. I'm starting to see more now. I feel like heading into 2025, but definitely over the past year, less roles, more competition, more people going through layoffs and, um, it seems like it's a lot harder to get through just traditionally applying through the company website or, um, just going through LinkedIn. And so I personally have found it to be more successful, like actually with the network human conversation and interaction there. And so, um, talking to people has been the biggest thing, um, which was different than a couple years ago, because when I was looking for that first contract role, it was a little bit more, you could just apply and you would hear back something.
Patrick: [00:11:12] Um, and is that because just of the sheer number of people, um, applying, or do you think that there's other factors there?
Casey: [00:11:21] I think it has to do with a lot of supply and demand right now. I mean, there's just so many talented people that are in the market for content roles, and I think that employers have the opportunity to be a little bit more choosy and like go through that. And so if they're having 500 applicants more, I mean, I've seen some numbers on LinkedIn, you know, where it says like, you know, know, a thousand applications in the past, however many days, you know, whatever it's like. And so I don't know about all that data, but, um, I there's there's a lot I definitely see a lot on those numbers when I've been looking at roles. Um, but I also feel like I've been seeing more hiring managers posting on LinkedIn saying, hey, I have a position open on my team. Dm me if you're interested. Um, I'm sure the hiring managers get a lot of, uh, responses and DMs, but I have found that reaching out to people in those avenues, as opposed to just like applying on the job site sometimes has been helpful if you can find, like the hiring managers post, and sometimes that will happen randomly, the LinkedIn algorithm just kind of funnels it up. And you'll open your app sometime and you'll be like, oh, cool. Um, there it is.
Patrick: [00:12:32] Something I found really interesting was if you search on LinkedIn for content design or UX writing in in quotation marks, and then you sort by things posted in the past day or the past week. You will see posts there about jobs that will not show up in the LinkedIn jobs thing. So you'll see those hiring managers saying, yeah, I'm hiring for this team or I'm hiring for that team. So you're seeing more of those posts from those hiring managers directly than a couple of years ago. Is that is that what you mean?
Casey: [00:13:04] Yeah. And I also have been following more people on LinkedIn that are very active at Resharing jobs, too. And so I try to stay up to date with following those people as well, because when the more they reshare, then sometimes the hiring manager of that post that they reshared will end up in my feed, you know? And so it all just kind of helps saying, um, engaged with those posts. So it's definitely helpful. And kudos to all the people that spend all of their time Resharing all of those posts on LinkedIn. They really do help, and I think it does drive visibility.
Patrick: [00:13:35] Shannon Leahy is probably the best at that. I feel like she posts like all these jobs and I'm like, how do you how do you find these? How do you have the time to do that? But she's great. Okay. So you've gone through this process. And I think what I think one of the harder things right now for people is there are quite a lot of senior roles available and around the junior to entry level roles, uh, a little bit more difficult to get your hands on these days. Now, you were going for those more junior roles a few years ago. Now I feel like you're in sort of like the intermediate to senior range. Um, what have you seen shift with regard to that? Are you seeing that same thing like there's more intermediate roles, more senior roles?
Casey: [00:14:21] Yeah, I've definitely seen more of the senior roles. Definitely more like the mid to senior as opposed to junior. And I think something and this is my own personal experience. So a couple of years ago, the role that I applied for was more of a mid-level role when I first broke into content design. But because of the period that we were in in the job search market. I still was basically like had a chance taken on me where someone gave me that. Yes, even though I was technically entry level and junior, and they were like, hey, you have all the qualities and the skills and what we want for the team, we can help fill in the gaps on the things that you might not know yet. And so I had somebody really give me that opportunity. And so I will say, even though there may be less junior roles now that I am seeing, and that's largely in part, there's less roles in general, there's a lot of mid and senior level people. So companies are able to kind of go after that person that has, you know, 7 to 10 years of experience or more. But I will say, even if someone is a junior entry level person, I think if you still are able to portray your skill set and your willingness to learn and you're able to communicate those skills, I definitely don't think if you're in an interview process that you'll be counted out, because I think it really just depends on if it's the right person and the right team and the right time Because all you need is the one. Yes.
Patrick: [00:15:38] What do you think has changed in terms of expectations? Because I talked to a few people who they are, not just people who are going for jobs, but also hiring managers. And I think 5 or 6 years ago, you could go into a role and you could show, you know, your daily UX writing challenge and maybe, uh, one portfolio project or one hypothetical project that you've done. And that would often be enough for someone to give you a chance. I feel like the expectations are raised now. Uh, have you felt that same shift? And I know you're not going for those sort of entry level roles anymore, but have you seen that in terms of the the rising expectations in your in your hiring process?
Casey: [00:16:21] Yeah, because I feel like some things that I've even been asked are about more. Well, like, what else do you have that's end to end or more strategy or how did you drive business strategy and what are the data there. And so I think the like like you mentioned, the shift is being a little bit more off of just can you write well and can you make this conversational friendly? Whatever. But how did you actually impact the business? Did you really ladder this up and help change this overarching annual goal that the company had? How did this happen from end to end? And it feels like it's the expectations coming to a bigger scale, if that makes sense. It's almost like it's it's taking and I don't know if it's our, our craft or discipline evolving, but it's like we have our good writing skills is like our baseline. But now it's like the next level. Like what else? And really just driving that strategy.
Patrick: [00:17:12] Yeah. It's interesting. You and I talked at length about an application you put in for a company, and we won't say the name, but the you had this case study where you were talking about how you basically implemented a content strategy into a, into an application. And it was, I thought, comprehensive and full of detail and and so on. But I remember you saying the feedback you got was that, you know, is there more, you know, like and I was like, what more, what, what more could you say? Like, now look, that's one company. That's not that's not every company. You know obviously. But I feel like that's indicative of something I'm seeing across a lot of different job descriptions, which is the expectation for content designers. Now is the the connection to business impact. And bottom line is it was a nice to have before and now it's just table stakes now.
Casey: [00:18:12] Yeah, absolutely. And it's also interesting too when you're going through like the portfolio process and you're going in the interviews too. Um, because it can be kind of subjective. Also, you know, you could you could show the same piece of work to five different hiring managers and potentially get different feedback or different things. And it really comes down also to the company and what they're wanting and what they need right now, too. And so, um, you know, we're seeing a lot of more AI and LLM related skill sets and things in our discipline right now. And so obviously, if that is a focus for a role, they may be really geared and keen on looking at those things. And maybe not everyone's worked in that space. So, um, that's definitely something I'm seeing more of is that. Yeah.
Patrick: [00:18:59] Yeah. That I'll yeah, I want to say I want to talk more about that actually. But one thing I want to ask is the one thing that I've seen people talking about, and this is, uh, I think a common issue, contradictory feedback. So I actually was looking at the UX writing subreddit yesterday, and there was someone saying, you know, I'm going for these jobs and I'm getting to the final round. But then one company said, oh, I want we want to see more about what you personally contributed. And then there's another one that says, well, we wanted to see more of what the group did. And then there's another company that says, well, we wanted to see more strategic level work, even though they felt like it was, you know, strategy heavy. So have you had to deal with that? And if so, what are some ways that you've had to navigate that in your own applications?
Casey: [00:19:49] Yeah, I feel like when it gets to that portfolio review, I can often drive myself a little mad trying to make sure I've checked all the boxes I've done, all the things I've communicated, who I worked with, at what level, and I really try and give every portfolio review my all and try to do the best that I can with the information that I'm given. But I think oftentimes, um, at least I've found that just sometimes I might not be the best fit or what they're looking for. And I don't know if that's a that's a great answer, but I feel like the roles that I've landed and the ones that I've been successful in, the hiring managers. Hiring manager is always really related to the work that I've shown, and it's like, hit the mark. And so I don't feel like I always know what I'm missing in the ones where it doesn't go as planned, if that makes sense, because I feel like I have similar approaches and the similar approach has landed me roles, but then it hasn't. And so I feel like for me mentally just thinking through the process, I'm like, okay, maybe those roles just weren't for me. That just wasn't my seat on that bus at that moment, you know, whatever it worked out to be. But it has worked out also in other instances. So I think the big thing is just trying to make sure that you're telling your story as comprehensively and in a unique way as you can. Um, and sometimes sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.
Patrick: [00:21:17] Well, I think one of the things that you've done is, like you, you asked people for advice. So you before you were applying for a role, you would send things to me and you would say, can you please look at with this? Um, and I know you asked other people as well, and I think that's such a smart thing to do, because if you're just relying on yourself, you'll never get. You're just going to drive yourself mad. So if, like, reaching out to people and asking, can you even just give me just some very quick feedback can be a great sort of directional, um, relief? I also think, yeah, it is frustrating. I think some of the better companies are good at directing you before the interview, the recruiter, especially where they will be saying, you know, they want to see this, they want to see this. When I interviewed at meta, um, pre-pandemic, they were basically the the recruiter there was basically guiding me through the process, and I knew what to expect and what they were looking for. It was really just a matter of can I deliver it? Um, but one and there are processes where you don't have that. And but one thing I find really frustrating is where you don't get any feedback at all. Right. So the I did the the, uh, the I've done a couple of interview processes, you know, a few years ago now where it'll just be like, oh, no, you know, and then you'll be like, can I get feedback? And they're like, no. I'm like, well, what can you what can you really do with that? Right. Like then you're left forever guessing. Was it me? Was it the work? Was it the fact that they had someone lined up internally like you? Just like, I feel like you can drive yourself crazy just by thinking about this, and I'm. Yeah, I'm sure you've done the same.
Casey: [00:22:58] Yeah. No, the no feedback is is the hardest because you're like, but I want to do better and I want to know how I can improve. And you really want to try and tweak it and alter it. But at the same time, when the things that I've gotten no feedback and no thank yous on, they've also landed me jobs at other places. So it's like it's it's, um, it's really interesting. And I feel like I really want to run like a control group of, like, which case study in here, you know, like, run my own user experience test on the portfolio, because it really is mind boggling to me that you can show the same case study, in essence, of work that you've done to different people and get a, hey, we love that. That's really comprehensive, that shows your work. I understand your vision and your strategy. We want you on the team. And then just or a no response.
Patrick: [00:23:44] Or no response. I mean, it's essentially like auditioning for a movie or a TV show, I guess, right? Like, you can have great work, but if you go in and you have, I don't know, blonde hair and not brown, the director is like, ah, no, sorry. It doesn't matter how good you are. Like, you're just not what? That you know that what they need. Um, but yeah, it's a little bit. It can get sort of super frustrating. Back to what you said about I. One interesting thing that I've been seeing in job descriptions is a will not necessarily like where they're saying, oh, you need experience because it's too early to have extensive experience yet, but a lot of people are saying you need a willingness to work with it and you need some descriptions are already I'm already seeing are asking for, you know, initial experience. What have jobs been? Are not jobs? What have, um, hiring managers or companies been asking you about that, if anything at all yet?
Casey: [00:24:46] Not too much yet for me specifically, because I feel like the places that I've worked at, there's been a role designated for like a conversation designer or an AI person. And so I haven't specifically been going for roles that have been flagged as an AI or LM role. But in I'm starting to learn more about Llms and like how to evaluate them and what that means. And so that's a skill set that I'm personally, um, wanting to develop, especially because it's something that I can see becoming more prevalent. I think it's something that will help me continue in my career as content designed to be able to understand those processes and how all of that works. But I haven't been asked a ton about that. Honestly, it's been mostly the larger overarching business strategy questions and things like that that have been coming up. But I is definitely there, and I'm seeing it a lot when I've been looking on LinkedIn.
Patrick: [00:25:41] Yeah. Interesting. So the, um, one thing I want to talk about really is how why you've been so successful. Because I know you may not feel that way. Uh, but you've you said you've gone from Wells Fargo, you've contracted at Warner Brothers Discovery. Then you were at PayPal and or eBay. Ebay. Excuse me. Uh, and you're at. Indeed. And you may not feel like it, but that's a very successful hit rate in terms of the applications you're sending out and the interviews you're getting. What do you think has made you so successful in getting these roles, especially because the majority of them have been in the past few years?
Casey: [00:26:25] Yeah. So there's one consistent piece of feedback that I've been getting personally throughout the interview process from hiring managers. And it's not just in roles that I get, it's even in roles where I've been told, hey, we found someone else with more experience in XYZ, but, you know, they still give feedback and that piece of feedback that and this is just about the interview process, particularly that I've been receiving, um, is that as I'm going through the interview process, I've been told that I come across as very coachable and willing to learn and that they can um, a lot of people say they appreciate my humility and my approach and delivery of like, talking about content design story. And that's something that does not come across just on paper with a resume. You know, if you're just like looking at a resume, you're like, okay, these are the things that I've done. But in our actual conversations, that's one thing that I've been given feedback on. Um, because being coachable and being willing to receive feedback is something that managers are really looking for. And so even in roles where they've been like, Casey, we found someone else. But you were great. And these are the really great qualities and we would love to stay in touch. You know, even in those conversations, it's really come back to that coachable element. And, um, even back when I was going into content marketing and I was having my first job in corporate world, and I had never worked in corporate before, and I was like, I probably don't have the experience to do this job.
Casey: [00:27:56] And imposter syndrome was ten out of ten. I remember having a conversation with the manager who hired me about a year later, and we were in a one on one, and I said, why did you hire me? Because I was like, I promise you, I probably had the least experience of the people that you're interviewing for this job. And she laughed. And she said, you did, but she said you were the only one that came in and sat down and said, I don't know that answer, but I'm willing to learn. And she said, and that's the person that I wanted on my team, and I wanted somebody that was really coachable. And so ever since that moment, I've really like kind of embraced that, and I've kept that and I've kept that hunger for always wanting to grow. And something that I will tell hiring managers and interview is that I know more than I did last year, but I don't know as much as Casey five years from now is going to know either. And I think there's always room to continue to improve our craft and try new things and get better. And I think, um, that's something, at least for me, that has proven to be really successful. Um, and taking that mindset beyond just the interview, you know, not just saying that to get the job, but having that actually be your intentions and who you are and your character and just taking that with you into your career.
Patrick: [00:29:03] Yeah, that's a really, really great point. And I you know, I'm thinking through people who I've interviewed before and I, I sometimes when you go into an interview, You really, really, really want to do well. So you overextend yourself, right? Like, if they ask you a question, you don't say, I don't know. You go, well, you know. And you try and for lack of a better word, sort of bullshit your way through the answer. But you're right. Like being having that humility and being able to be coached can land you in a just much higher esteem in those people, because they know that you're not going to be an issue when you're on the team, right? I think of Simon Sinek has this talk that he does, and I know a lot of people don't sort of gel with, you know, a lot of his things, but he was saying he, he was working with a military group once. I think it might have been the Navy Seals. And he was asking them like, how do you pick who gets on the team? And they described a sort of like a graph where one axis is high capability and the other is high trust.
Patrick: [00:30:12] And obviously like you don't want the low capability, low trust person. Um, you obviously want the high capability, high trust person, but often they will choose the sort of mid capability, high trust person over the mid or like high capability, low trust person, because part of trust is being able to depend on them to not only do things that they say they're going to do, but also to the point you're talking about. Be coachable, to understand new ideas, to be able to say, I don't know that I'm willing to learn, willing to give it a go. You know, if they disagree with something, being able to say, I disagree with that, but I'm going to commit to it. You know, I'm not going to grumble or try and sabotage the project that we're on, you know, that sort of thing. So yeah, I think being coachable is a quality that people don't talk about a lot in terms of hiring and job searching. But given what you just said and your success record sounds like people should be taking on more of that approach.
Casey: [00:31:15] Um, a question I've been asked in the interview process before is what do you do to stay relevant in the industry? Um, I think that's there's there's value in also continuing to brush up on your skills and pick up that UX book or whatever it may be.
Patrick: [00:31:29] I think people overestimate the amount of time they think that they need to stay relevant. I yeah, because especially right now, because there's so much new technology happening and it can really seem overwhelming. Like, you know, there was language models and now there's agents and now there's, you know, Framer and Cursor and all these different pieces of software that people use, you know, to build stuff with AI. But you don't need to spend like 12 hours doing something, like, you can just play around for 30 minutes and you can get a good idea as to, you know, how something could be used or, you know, even just to get a feel for it and to understand it. Like, to be honest, like I would take half an hour of playing with something and doing it, versus spending two hours reading blog posts about it, because then you'll actually do the thing. And actually, like this past weekend, I opened cursor and I was like, I'm going to try and build an application and see, see what happens. And so I just, you know, for an hour, just sat there just messing around, just seeing what I could do.
Patrick: [00:32:33] Learned some things that, you know, were surprised by some things. And that's all you really need to, to do. And that gives you the ammunition to have an opinion rather than just, you know, just going into an interview and sort of winging it. But I get why people are exhausted, though, because like, if you're looking for a job and you know, you've been rejected so many times, like, you know, it's a constant battle to understand what's new and what's relevant. And yeah, I get it, but you need the hunger. What are some of the more surprising questions you've gotten in these interviews? And I don't mean like the ones like AI. Content designers probably don't get asked this, but when you go to like a consultancy, they tend to ask you questions like how many chair legs are there in the United States? And you have to sort of like talk about like, oh, how do you calculate the number of people and the number of chairs and whatever? But I'm wondering, are there questions that you've been surprised by or maybe that have stumped you a little bit?
Casey: [00:33:31] I, I have not been asked anything quite to the level of chair legs. Um, that that is not, I think, like I've been asked some just like pretty general open ended ones, kind of along the lines of like the one I mentioned previously of how do you stay relevant in industry or how do you define content quality? Like what? Like what does that mean? And so I've been asked kind of a lot of these big questions that probably a lot of people could take many different answers. And so I think in the moment there's some questions like that that are big and open ended, that even if you prepare for an interview and you take notes and you do stuff, you're like, ooh, I did not prepare for that one. And so you just kind of have to take a minute in the interview and go, how do I define content quality? Am I giving them a definition right now? What am I about to say? And, um, usually something comes to mind on the top of my head and we'll see what happens. Doesn't always go as planned, but, um, I will say I've been asked probably the most like, unique question I was ever asked was if I was a light bulb or a laser beam.
Patrick: [00:34:40] Okay. Um, and which one are you?
Casey: [00:34:45] I thought I was a light bulb.
Patrick: [00:34:46] Um, why are you a light bulb?
Casey: [00:34:48] So. Okay, the answer that I gave in the interview is different than an answer I thought of later. So I am a deep thinker processor, so I'm very much someone that will sit there and think about better responses later after the meeting. Um, and so in the moment, I said I was a light bulb because I was creative and could kind of like bring light to situations or something like that along those lines. And then later after that interview, I remember I was getting ready for bed that night, and I was literally the light was on in our room. And then I turned it off and I just was looking at this spot. It was a painting on our wall and with the light on, it looked one way and with the light turned off, all of a sudden it went black and it went dark and you couldn't see it anymore. And it completely changed. And so I was like, oh, that's why I'm a light bulb. Because I have the ability to flip and see things from new perspectives and light bulbs. You can literally like change how things look. And so I came up with a more elaborate.
Patrick: [00:35:45] Answer.
Casey: [00:35:46] After I was like brushing my teeth hours later that no one got to hear until.
Patrick: [00:35:51] Yeah, but that's that always happens in interviews where you're driving home and you just think, damn it, I should have said this, or I should have said that, or I think. But those types of questions are more about revealing your thinking than like what you choose, right? I always think it's interesting when people are asked a question and it goes back to this. I think the most successful people, certainly when I've been successful in interviews before and when I've hired people and, you know, it's it's been their success. The one thing that I really look for is people being genuine. And you can always tell if someone's being disingenuous because you are or trying to trying way too hard. Uh, because they feel really desperate. And you'll ask them a question and it could be a very complicated question, and they'll just start talking straight away. Like that question you said before, like, how do you define content quality? And they won't even take a beat where you're like, well, I think content quality is blah, blah, blah. Whereas like, more realistically, people will sit back and they'll take 20s and they'll think, hmm, how do I define content quality? And then they'll think about it and then they'll answer.
Patrick: [00:36:54] And I at I'm all hiring managers are different. But like I had zero problem with people doing that. Or someone saying I need to take a second to think about that. And I'd be like, cool. Think about it. You know, it's a deep question, you know? Like, I think sometimes people can feel I don't want to use the word desperate because it's kind of putting people down, because people, you know, a lot of people are desperate to find a job. So I don't want to I don't want to use that in a pejorative way. But the, um, yeah, I just feel like if you you shouldn't be afraid to think deeply or take a breath and, and really try and get your thoughts in order before you answer something. And I feel like that type of confidence, uh, can really come across in the same way you described about, you know, being coachable or being humble. You know, you can think about things before you have to sort of spew things out.
Casey: [00:37:47] Yeah. And often in those times, the biggest challenge is just getting out of your own head. Because if you get thrown like this big strategic question, your first thought is, oh no, I didn't prepare for this. This isn't any question that anyone's asked me before. And sometimes the questions may sound so simple that you think like, oh no. Am I overthinking it? And so for me, I tend to find the challenge like calming my mind in the moment and having that internal freakout that no one can see on your face of going, okay, I'm going to process this for a second. And just being able to be like, okay, Casey, you can answer this. You can think about it and just kind of talk your way through it. Um, but that's definitely challenging. And I don't love that feeling of feeling unprepared in an interview. But it happens sometimes when you get those questions.
Patrick: [00:38:38] What do you think is you've already talked about, you know, what your sort of secret weapon has been. But for people who are still searching for a role and they're applying right now, what are some things that you've you've learned in the past couple of years that you think could apply to them and they could put into practice.
Casey: [00:38:58] In terms of preparing for interviews.
Patrick: [00:39:01] Preparing for interviews, answering questions, anything about the process, just anything that stands out in terms of things that have helped you.
Casey: [00:39:08] Yeah, I think definitely if you know the people that you're interviewing with, I may be kind of crazy, but I do like look them up on LinkedIn and like take notes and try to like, really do my thorough research of all of the people that I'm talking to. And so does that all come up in interviews? Always? No, I don't just get on the interview, be like, hey, I looked at your profile. I saw you did this talk. Like, I don't bring that up, but, um, for me, it's like I do my research mode, so I feel like, okay, like, I have a really good idea of, like, this group of people that I'm talking to to really try and help frame my, put my mind words and get this out, um, to really just try and put myself in the right frame of mind to give them the information that they may be looking for or the things that may be important to them too, but also like doing company research and having really good questions at the end. I have found that some interviews you get to the end and they're like, okay, we have time for questions, but you may be one minute until the end. And so you only get one question, or sometimes you get to the end of the interview, you get through the other parts quicker. Maybe you were nervous and you talked too fast. Happens to me. Or maybe there just wasn't a lot of questions after your portfolio review. And now you have like 15 minutes and now you're like, oh shoot, I have a lot of time to kill.
Casey: [00:40:27] And they're about to have me ask all my questions. And so I think having questions ready to go, but also something that I think tripped me up in previous years, is I felt like every time I talked to people, I thought I had to have different questions. But oftentimes now I will ask the same questions to like different panels of people, even if it's in with like the same interview cycle. Because for me, as a candidate, as much as we want the job because we're looking for the job, like we still need to be a good fit for the company too. And so I also want to get a good fit of culture because culture is like Uber important to me and I want to be able to like, know the environment I'm stepping into. So I will often ask very similar culture based questions to different people in different panels, even within the same interview time frame. Just because I want to know if the answers are around the same or if somebody has different perspectives. And so I typically try to take a good chunk of my question time with culture, especially if you end up with like 15 minutes at the end. Um, I don't know how much people typically delegate for like, culture versus whatever questions, but I know for me that's something that I really try and get a good feel for, because I do want to also know if I'll be a good candidate there as well.
Patrick: [00:41:43] Well, I mean, it's just a good practice to ask about anything that you're interested in. Like, it could be. You know, you really want to understand what the governance process is like. And so you really want to talk about that. Maybe, you know, that's your really important to you or. One thing I always enjoyed asking people in interviews, it's like, why do you work here? You know, like, you know, why do you continue to work here? And you could definitely tell the difference between people who were just saying they'd just be like, they don't want to trash talk the company, but they clearly are not in a good place. And they'd be like, ah, yeah, it's a good place to work, you know. And but people who really enjoy it would say specific things like, oh, I really learn a lot from the people who I'm working with, you know, or, uh, you know, I really enjoy the culture or whatever. If they say something specific, then I think your tip about asking the same question to multiple people is good, because you'll get a range. It's kind of like the control group you were talking about earlier, right? Like you'll be able to, you know, get a range of different responses.
Casey: [00:42:45] One of the best questions I was asked. So I was on a panel and I was interviewing for someone else for a position. There was other people on my team. One of the best questions that a candidate asked me, which has always stuck with me, is there was myself and another person. We had the same job. We worked together all the time and the candidate asked us, asked me and her both why we liked working with each other on the spot and it was like, Casey, why do you like working with her? And then she asked the same thing of my coworker back to me. And we both had a great working relationship and we were friends and it was great, but it was one of those questions that stuck with me because I was like, oh, they're really trying to get it fit for the culture. They asked very specifically because we work together how we liked working together. And I was like, well, we do. And so we were able to answer very honestly and it was great, but it was definitely that was a great temperature read, because if there was friction, there was no hiding it. You know, you'd.
Patrick: [00:43:37] Be able to see it. Yeah. For sure. No, I really like that. I uh, the I don't know if I've mentioned it on the podcast before, but the best interview I ever had, the it was at a very large company and I was in the lobby. And this is a place where a bit of a old school place, but with a technology department. And I was sitting there waiting and a guy came up and he sort of snaps his fingers at me and he goes, Patrick. And I'm like, yep. And he goes like, follow me. And we went into a boardroom and we sat there and he's like, I'm going to tell you everything that sucks about this company, and I'm going to tell you everything that's good about this company. And then you can make a decision about whether you want to keep keep working or like, keep going forward. And I was like, that is the most honestly I've ever seen in a job interview ever. Um, so yeah, asking questions to get to that, that place of honesty is, you know, never a never a waste of time.
Casey: [00:44:35] Um, yeah.
Patrick: [00:44:36] And I think the just to, just to finish up, I think a lot of people are feeling really frustrated right now. Um, I think there are, you know, there are more jobs, there are more people getting hired. So things are looking up. But I think there are still people who are frustrated by the experience. I'm wondering if you could give them some advice in terms of how you were able to motivate yourself during that whole process?
Casey: [00:45:00] Yeah, I think the first thing is one, it's very natural to feel defeated going through all that process, but two, to realize that it doesn't mean that you are a bad employee, that you are not skilled, that you're any of those things. Because trust me, when you get so many no's at different points, you start wondering, is it me? But it's one. There's many opportunities that just weren't for me at that moment and it can feel like a lot. But I will say, the biggest thing that really helped me throughout all of that was making connections with people and continuing to reach out and to not allow myself to ever be isolated. And I don't just mean like physically isolated, but when you're in that job searching process, really connect with people and try to one on one as much as you can. Um, one thing that I really try and do is if there's a company I'm interested in, or I see people, other content designers that work there, like I'll reach out and I will say, hey, can you tell me more about working here? And sometimes people answer. Sometimes people don't. But I think that reaching out to other people and just trying to start a conversation, I've had people that have been willing to hop on Google, meet with me before and just talk and get to know me, and you never know what those conversations could lead to in the future. Um, and I think just continuing to put yourself out there, even though it can feel tiring, especially if you don't hear back from people.
Casey: [00:46:19] But the most success that I've found throughout this job interview process has come from networking, has come from talking with other people. And that, I feel like is just so important. Um, it's even one of the things that helped me jump into UX writing when I was trying to make that transition out of marketing writing, um, I was trying to connect with other content designers because I was really wanting feedback, and I was wanting to figure out what it was actually like working at these companies, and I DM'd a bunch of people. And funny enough, Olivia, who also works at UX Content Collective, was the one that responded back with me. Neither her or I worked here yet at that point, and she and I hopped on a zoom call and we got to talk about content design, and I was in marketing. And so she kind of mentored me through that. And that was just like a random cold call. Linkedin. And fast forward years later, we both are here at UX Content Collective. So like, you never know where your network takes you. Um, and just also just having people take time to invest and talk to you also feels really great. And it really boosts your confidence. But then also being able to do that to someone else. And even if you feel like you're not in a position to like give advice, just having the openness to also talk with other people who are going through the job process too. I think, again, just building the community really, really helps.
Patrick: [00:47:37] Excellent. Well, Casey, uh, you're in a great role now, which is well deserved after a lot of searching. Um, where can people find you online if they want to connect with you?
Casey: [00:47:49] Yeah. Feel free to find me on LinkedIn. They can also find me on the UX content website. Um, feel free to shoot me a DM on LinkedIn. I'm happy to connect with anyone or, um, just answer your questions more about content.
Patrick: [00:48:04] Awesome. And you can talk about Taylor Swift. Uh, which I'm sure you'll have no problem with anytime. Casey, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on.
Casey: [00:48:15] Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun.
Patrick: [00:48:17] All right, that's it for me this month. Just a reminder. Sign up for that announcement for that course announcement next week. I think you're really going to enjoy it. And head over to UX Content Collective and get 20% off with PODCAST20. All right. See you next time.